How to take Lewis County into the future.

[Klickitat]

"So I guess you'd be willing to make ALL businesses in Lewis County tax exempt? Why should Joe's business have to pick up the tax slack for New Company?"

Every tax put on a business gets passed on to the consumer.

[LCPatriot]

Government action, (with the exception of rolling back taxes and regulations) is not the pathway to economic prosperity. The government simply needs to step aside and let the private sector fill the void, naturally. Anything else is false economy, conditioned upon government permission, and eventually counter productive. For example, take the steam plant tax exemptions. A different wind is blowing, and now the government is going to start taxing the steam plant, which will stiffle profit and productivity. I say, quit taxing all businesses. Afterall, businesses exist for people, and are owned by people. Just tax the income of the people, in a flat tax structure, and everything would settle out in the long run. The more income one has, the more taxes they pay. Less, income, less taxes.

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by Klickitat

"So I guess you'd be willing to make ALL businesses in Lewis County tax exempt? Why should Joe's business have to pick up the tax slack for New Company?"

Every tax put on a business gets passed on to the consumer.

But doesn't that happen in all counties?

We still haven't figured out why 37 counties have lower unemployment than Lewis County. (Other than the explanation I gave in my thread.)

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by LCPatriot

Government action, (with the exception of rolling back taxes and regulations) is not the pathway to economic prosperity. The government simply needs to step aside and let the private sector fill the void, naturally. Anything else is false economy, conditioned upon government permission, and eventually counter productive.

Sort of like they do in Third World countries, eh, LC?

For example, take the steam plant tax exemptions. A different wind is blowing, and now the government is going to start taxing the steam plant, which will stiffle profit and productivity.

But weren't those tax cuts conditioned on providing jobs?

I say, quit taxing all businesses. Afterall, businesses exist for people, and are owned by people.

If a business wants the privilege of using our infrastructure and whatnot, they should be taxed.

Just tax the income of the people, in a flat tax structure, and everything would settle out in the long run. The more income one has, the more taxes they pay. Less, income, less taxes.

Those of us who are better informed know that the flat tax primarily benefits the wealthy.

[Klickitat]

Originally Posted by Chuck Haunreiter

If a business wants the privilege of using our infrastructure and whatnot, they should be taxed.

Do you feel it is right to double tax people?

[LCPatriot]

Originally Posted by Chuck Haunreiter

Sort of like they do in Third World countries, eh, LC?

But weren't those tax cuts conditioned on providing jobs?

If a business wants the privilege of using our infrastructure and whatnot, they should be taxed.

Those of us who are better informed know that the flat tax primarily benefits the wealthy.

1) You mean socialist 3rd world countries, or dictatorship 3rd world countries?

2) You mean the tax exemptions? I don't think they should have gotten exemptions.

3) A business is owned by people. Tax the people's income that owns the business, but not the business entity. An entity cannot use any services, but the people owning the business do.

4) A flat tax taxes income equally accross the board. No one should be taxed for what they own, but instead, what they earn, if you want to make it fair.

[gnomeme]

It used to be that if in an area jobs were unavailable you would pick up and move to a better place but that doesn't seem to be the case now days. With home ownership up and high unemployment benefits there seems to be more unemployed waiting it out.

Chuck that is bull, the L&I tab alone has driving many a business under.

LC is fighting a loosing battle so far with the state [say the Seattle Metro area] for fixing I-5, getting an I-5 exit for the Port and for land usage.

Go get him Klickitat

If you don't like me you don't gnomeme

[TenX]

Originally Posted by Chuck Haunreiter

And finally, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, somebody who claims to know about business, that state and local taxes are a relatively small burden on businesses and reduce profit rates by comparatively small amounts. I'm sure you're well aware of that, aren't you, Klick?

So Chuck, my L&I rates went up 16% even though I have had no claims for the multiple years my business has operated. My base water/sewer rates just went up by 54%. My annual equipment registration fee went up 40%. I have no (reasonable) control over these governmental costs. Having to produce another 3+ days worth of profit per month just to cover increased government costs is not small potatoes for me.


Another vote for flat tax here.

[TenX]

Alright, so we know we've been handed a bowl of lemons in regards to regulations.

So how do we make lemonade for Lewis County.

The folks in higher employment counties such as King and Thurston hunger for environmentally responsible products. I say we produce what they want. We've got small forests and small mills. Time to write up a nice brochure on how these pieces of wood available for their home remodel project came from a responsibly managed family forest.

We have small farms beginning to market their products to the larger cities north and south. Perhaps the railroad could be used to more efficiently move their specialty produce to the hungry populace north and south of us. For instance, a farm could have some standard shipping pod they packed to be quickly loaded on a transport car to the city of their choice.

The citizens of Pugetopolis have wants, and we have the means to fulfill them.

[Klickitat]

Originally Posted by TenX

Alright, so we know we've been handed a bowl of lemons in regards to regulations.

So how do we make lemonade for Lewis County.

The folks in higher employment counties such as King and Thurston hunger for environmentally responsible products. I say we produce what they want. We've got small forests and small mills. Time to write up a nice brochure on how these pieces of wood available for their home remodel project came from a responsibly managed family forest.

We have small farms beginning to market their products to the larger cities north and south. Perhaps the railroad could be used to more efficiently move their specialty produce to the hungry populace north and south of us. For instance, a farm could have some standard shipping pod they packed to be quickly loaded on a transport car to the city of their choice.

The citizens of Pugetopolis have wants, and we have the means to fulfill them.

Another person with ideas. I like this. Here is a link to a guy who might be interested in working with you on your ideas. He is up north but has ties down here. http://www.redonegreen.com/ He is a contractor dedicated to using environmentally sound practices.

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by Klickitat

Do you feel it is right to double tax people?

I donno. What are you talking about?

[Klickitat]

I just want to mention to some of those people in the are that are scared to move. This is how it is done. We throw out some ideas and work together to improve things. We do not tear down.

Think BIG.

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by LCPatriot

1) You mean socialist 3rd world countries, or dictatorship 3rd world countries?

Does it make any difference?

2) You mean the tax exemptions? I don't think they should have gotten exemptions.

Maybe you could explain that to Klick.

3) A business is owned by people. Tax the people's income that owns the business, but not the business entity. An entity cannot use any services, but the people owning the business do.

I dunno, LC. The United State Supreme Court just ruled that corporations are people.

4) A flat tax taxes income equally accross the board. No one should be taxed for what they own, but instead, what they earn, if you want to make it fair.

Those of us who have a better understanding of the flat tax recognize that if you lower the taxes on the rich, the middle class has to pick up the slack. Do your homework.

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by gnomeme

It used to be that if in an area jobs were unavailable you would pick up and move to a better place but that doesn't seem to be the case now days.

Do you have any idea where people might move to get a job these days?

With home ownership up and high unemployment benefits there seems to be more unemployed waiting it out.

Yeah! What a bunch of moochers! Life is good on unemployment.

Chuck that is bull, the L&I tab alone has driving many a business under.

I honestly don't know about that. Perhaps you would like to take this opportunity to provide us with some documentation.

LC is fighting a loosing battle so far with the state [say the Seattle Metro area] for fixing I-5, getting an I-5 exit for the Port and for land usage.

Well, it has been said that the state is reluctant to spend tax dollars on backwoods anti-tax Lewis County. The state would rather spend its money in counties that voted for the taxes.

Go get him Klickitat

Klick isn't in much of a position to take me on. After his big buildup for this thread, it turned out to be quite a letdown.

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by TenX

So Chuck, my L&I rates went up 16% even though I have had no claims for the multiple years my business has operated. My base water/sewer rates just went up by 54%. My annual equipment registration fee went up 40%. I have no (reasonable) control over these governmental costs. Having to produce another 3+ days worth of profit per month just to cover increased government costs is not small potatoes for me.

Another vote for flat tax here.

How would a flat tax affect those expenses?

Or conversely, how would those expenses affect a flat tax?

[Chuck Haunreiter]

Originally Posted by TenX

Alright, so we know we've been handed a bowl of lemons in regards to regulations.

So how do we make lemonade for Lewis County.

The folks in higher employment counties such as King and Thurston hunger for environmentally responsible products. I say we produce what they want. We've got small forests and small mills. Time to write up a nice brochure on how these pieces of wood available for their home remodel project came from a responsibly managed family forest.

We have small farms beginning to market their products to the larger cities north and south. Perhaps the railroad could be used to more efficiently move their specialty produce to the hungry populace north and south of us. For instance, a farm could have some standard shipping pod they packed to be quickly loaded on a transport car to the city of their choice.

The citizens of Pugetopolis have wants, and we have the means to fulfill them.

Good start, TenX.

[Klickitat]

Here is my position in a nutshell. I am with LCPatriot on this. There should be no taxes on business'.

A person or persons, take money that they have saved and risk it in a hope that they MIGHT make some money. Because they take all the risks, create jobs for others, spend money in other establishments and create taxable wealth; they are fined by governments in the form of taxes.

This makes no sense what so ever. Not only does it not make sense to punish those that actually do good in the community, but then those very fines slow down the growth of that business, cuts wages to the employees and lower the overall taxes collected by the government.

[LCPatriot]

Chuck, I understand that in a flat tax scheme, everyone pays the same percentage of their income in taxes. That is fair. It is not fair for people who make more money than others to pay a higher percentage of taxes. How is that fair? I work very hard operating my two businesses. I sacrifice a lot of play time to do this. I am willing to pay my equal share, but I shouldn't be forced to pay for your share too.

[bruce hylton]

Originally Posted by LCPatriot

Chuck, I understand that in a flat tax scheme, everyone pays the same percentage of their income in taxes. That is fair. It is not fair for people who make more money than others to pay a higher percentage of taxes. How is that fair? I work very hard operating my two businesses. I sacrifice a lot of play time to do this. I am willing to pay my equal share, but I shouldn't be forced to pay for your share too.

I don't like any kind of tax, but realise, as do the rest of you, that some form is necessary. The self employed are hit with a tax on gross income in Washington. Everyone is hit with a sales tax on what they spend on taxable items. And that seems to be the crutch. At one time even food was taxed, if purchased at a store. An increase in sales taxable items will raise revenue. A decrease in maintence jobs that can be contracted out, such as road maintenance, will save money, create private sector jobs, and create more taxable income. Money that can be spent and will rise and fall[bid basis] as the economy dictates. Some jobs created from existing jobs for less money for labor and less tax money for equipment might be a place to start in a small unit such as the county.

[dbranson]

Originally Posted by Klickitat

This topic is in response to Chuck H. I am a firm believer that you do not have any right to complain unless you have a solution to put forth.

Unemployment in Lewis County is at a desperate level and a new direction needs to be taken in order to fix this desperate situation. I will lay out what I feel is the cause and what I feel is a proper direction and some low cost solutions as well.

First I need to get everyone on the same page so I will answer the question posed to Chuck that he was unable to answer.
A) What is the #1 reason a business opens it's doors?
B) What are the four things a business needs to obtain this goal?
C) How do regional conditions effect these four things for a potential new business?

A) Profit. This is the simplest of things to realize. Every business decision is based on this. Without profit you can not keep the doors open.

B) #1 Customers #2 Infrastructure #3 Employable pool of workers #4 Resources These can be put into any order you want and in some cases overlap (will explain later), but these are the basic things a business needs.

C) Because EVERYTHING is filtered through the consideration of PROFIT business' move to those places where the proximity of B maximizes A. Ok I was having fun with that. However the lower the cost of business the higher the profitability and so follows business.

Anything added to the cost of business makes it harder for that business to operate. This is where LCPatriot has it right. Government regulations and higher taxes slow down business growth. That is not to say that all taxes are bad for business. Taxes that pay for infrastructure help business and are good. Taxes that build parks, pay for social programs or pay for government regulators hurt business growth.

Now I am going to post this first segment to keep it manageable. I just wanted to get everyone on the same page. We can discuss this first and then I can start listing my ideas or if I do not see anyone jumping on here I will jsut go ahead and start.

A) Business is not about profit. It's about providing a good or service that people need at a price they can afford. Once you operate solely for profit you end up screwing your customers and employees. Concentrate on your business the profit will come.

B) Provide a product or service your community needs. People are not going to patronize your business if you don't have anything they want or at a price they feel is unreasonable. Something unique, not mass produced would be nice.

C) This is the reason a lot of jobs are being off-shored.

I would not want to live in a community that did not have parks or social services. I would move and take my business somewhere else. We have the technology to buzz cut the forests in just a few short years. Without regulations our hills and mountains would look like Chile. Without the forests I would move somewhere else as well. Without regulations those businesses that work solely for profit would destroy our lifestyle and our lively hood.

No matter what economic cycle or regulatory conditions there is always a few people who start viable, profitable businesses and thrive. It is just a matter of seeing the opportunities.

[Klickitat]

Originally Posted by dbranson

A) Business is not about profit. It's about providing a good or service that people need at a price they can afford. Once you operate solely for profit you end up screwing your customers and employees. Concentrate on your business the profit will come.

That is what nonprofit organizations do. A business objective is profit. No one risks everything to break even or to intentionally loose money.

B) Provide a product or service your community needs. People are not going to patronize your business if you don't have anything they want or at a price they feel is unreasonable. Something unique, not mass produced would be nice.
That is called the free market system and I never made an argument against it.

C) This is the reason a lot of jobs are being off-shored.

Yes, because because with the rising cost of doing business, the profit margin shrinks and it is more profitable to do business over seas.

I would not want to live in a community that did not have parks or social services. I would move and take my business somewhere else. We have the technology to buzz cut the forests in just a few short years. Without regulations our hills and mountains would look like Chile. Without the forests I would move somewhere else as well. Without regulations those businesses that work solely for profit would destroy our lifestyle and our lively hood.

This is why companies "donate" to local causes and projects. It's called advertising and marketing. Do not think for a moment they are doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. Business' have but one goal and that is to make a profit. With out this they can not exist. Now the owners of those business' can make what ever decision they want with their money, but the business' decisions are dictated by profit.

No matter what economic cycle or regulatory conditions there is always a few people who start viable, profitable businesses and thrive. It is just a matter of seeing the opportunitieI could not agree more.s.

Let's not confuse what business is all about.

[LCPatriot]

I have owned one business for 23 years, and just started another 2 years ago. My philosophy has always been treat the customer like you would like to be treated yourself. But, don't confuse that business philosophy with the fact that the reason the business operates is the profit motive. The better I treat customers, the more profit I have, period. If I just wanted to do the job that I have chosen, I would just go to work for someone else, and let them worry about making the profit necessary to stay in business.

[bruce hylton]

Originally Posted by LCPatriot

I have owned one business for 23 years, and just started another 2 years ago. My philosophy has always been treat the customer like you would like to be treated yourself. But, don't confuse that business philosophy with the fact that the reason the business operates is the profit motive. The better I treat customers, the more profit I have, period. If I just wanted to do the job that I have chosen, I would just go to work for someone else, and let them worry about making the profit necessary to stay in business.

It is a cinch that not everyone on here works for themselves or will give "a dollars worth of work for a dollar". I didn't spend my life savings to work for nothing or give it to someome too lazy to go the extra step. I agree with you LCPatriot about motive. And I have quit more than one job where I wasn't making the boss any money. My pride means more to me than to not do my best at what I was hired to do. Some jobs are set up in that fasion, but they are usually government type jobs. I can see what I have done in the past and hope I stay that way.

[dbranson]

GM used to be a really good car company run by "Car Guys". Then the bean counters took over and ran it solely for profit. What we got was the same, really boring, cookie cutter autos across all their product lines. They filed for bankruptcy.

[Klickitat]

Originally Posted by dbranson

GM used to be a really good car company run by "Car Guys". Then the bean counters took over and ran it solely for profit. What we got was the same, really boring, cookie cutter autos across all their product lines. They filed for bankruptcy.

What filled that gap? Other car companies providing a better product. Now if it was not for the gubment, GM would be gone. If not for the profit no one would would build the better car to fill the need.

Look at Russia, styling and reliable cars coming out of there huh?

[LCPatriot]

Originally Posted by dbranson

GM used to be a really good car company run by "Car Guys". Then the bean counters took over and ran it solely for profit. What we got was the same, really boring, cookie cutter autos across all their product lines. They filed for bankruptcy.

No, what cooked their goose, was getting in bed with the United Autoworkers Union, and allowing wages and bennies go so far up that they were no longer competitive with Japanese car manufacturers. Japan could make better quality cars, ship them all the way accross the ocean and sell them for less than GM.

The law of supply and demand is taking care of the weak, and benefiting the strong.

[rockinredneck]

Japan has been making cars here in the United States for years.

[LCPatriot]

Originally Posted by rockinredneck

Japan has been making cars here in the United States for years.

True, and I suspect the reason is to avoid the import tariff's. But, there are plenty of cars made abroad, shipped over here and pay the tariff and still cost less than UAW made cars.

[mongoose]

Originally Posted by LCPatriot

True, and I suspect the reason is to avoid the import tariff's. But, there are plenty of cars made abroad, shipped over here and pay the tariff and still cost less than UAW made cars.

Japan cars are known as "J" cars and are being sold on lots here locally. If you are considering buying a Toyota or Honda you should ask if the car is an import or domestic because in Toyota's case, the "J" cars are not subject to the recall because they didn't cut corners.

[zwglaze]

[quote=Klickitat;151089]Basic question for you Chuck. If we do not have a company here and we tell them that we will let them stay here tax free as long as they bring in a certain amount of jobs, How is that a bad thing? We are not loosing anything. If we did not have their tax revenue in the first place we did not loose any, we only gain jobs and revenues spent in Lewis County. These funds circulate in the county and are taxed.

So in the end a company is allowed to be more profitable, we gain jobs, money is pumped into the local economy and taxes are collected from that.

That seems reasonable as a means of attracting a durable goods manufacturer or warehouse type operation. However, in general the number of businesses of this nature are less plentiful than prior points in our history. It would take a range of characteristics to attract businesses of that nature. Yet the lower your business tax rate is, the more new, existing, and migrating businesses can expand.